cheney voted against a resolution to release nelson mandela so this was all happening around the world. >> right. i think peter's point that south africa's transition was facilitated by the end of the cold war is extremely important. but it's also extremely important to remember that in the 1980s, a global anti-apartheid movement arose during the cold war in which people in america and europe said we're not going to see south africa in purely cold arrest terms. we're not going to accept ronald reagan's -- the anc because we called ate communist organization. i think the willingness to look at south africa beyond cold arrest terms even when the cold war was raging in the neigh years. >> when you talked to nelson mandela, did you find that he -- had he forgiven the west for, you know, having mostly for the most part sided against the anc? >> i think in my conversations with him, he forgive the west, yes, and he realized that a huge amount of learnings we can pick up from western leaders and in deed we did pick up a huge amount of learnings. i think for example, you remember quite well wh